Los administradores de TransicionEstructural no se responsabilizan de las opiniones vertidas por los usuarios del foro. Cada usuario asume la responsabilidad de los comentarios publicados.
0 Usuarios y 1 Visitante están viendo este tema.
The Largest Short-Term Threat to Humanity: The Fuel Pools of FukushimaGeorge Washington's pictureSubmitted by George Washington on 04/07/2012 02:19 -0400The Greatest Single Threat to Humanity: Fuel Pool Number 4We noted days after the Japanese earthquake that the biggest threat was from the spent fuel rods in the fuel pool at Fukushima unit number 4, and not from the reactors themselves. See this and this.We noted in February: Scientists say that there is a 70% chance of a magnitude 7.0 earthquake hitting Fukushima this year, and a 98% chance within the next 3 years. Given that nuclear expert Arnie Gundersen says that an earthquake of 7.0 or larger could cause the entire fuel pool structure collapse, it is urgent that everything humanly possible is done to stabilize the structure housing the fuel pools at reactor number 4. Tepco is doing some construction at the building … it is a race against time under very difficult circumstances, and hopefully Tepco will win. As AP points out: The structural integrity of the damaged Unit 4 reactor building has long been a major concern among experts because a collapse of its spent fuel cooling pool could cause a disaster worse than the three reactor meltdowns. *** Gundersen (who used to build spent fuel pools) explains that there is no protection surrounding the radioactive fuel in the pools. He warns that – if the fuel pools at reactor 4 collapse due to an earthquake – people should get out of Japan, and residents of the West Coast of America and Canada should shut all of their windows and stay inside for a while. The fuel pool number 4 is apparently not in great shape, and there have already been countless earthquakes near the Fukushima region since the 9.0 earthquake last March.Germany's ZDF tv quotes nuclear engineer Yukitero Naka as saying: If another earthquake occurs then the building [number 4] could collapse and another chain reaction could very likely occur.(Unit 4 contains plutonium as well as other radioactive wastes.)Mainchi reported on Monday: The storage pool in the No. 4 reactor building has a total of 1,535 fuel rods, or 460 tons of nuclear fuel, in it. The 7-story building itself has suffered great damage, with the storage pool barely intact on the building’s third and fourth floors. The roof has been blown away. If the storage pool breaks and runs dry, the nuclear fuel inside will overheat and explode, causing a massive amount of radioactive substances to spread over a wide area. Both the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC) and French nuclear energy company Areva have warned about this risk. A report released in February by the Independent Investigation Commission on the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Accident stated that the storage pool of the plant’s No. 4 reactor has clearly been shown to be “the weakest link” in the parallel, chain-reaction crises of the nuclear disaster. The worse-case scenario drawn up by the government includes not only the collapse of the No. 4 reactor pool, but the disintegration of spent fuel rods from all the plant’s other reactors. If this were to happen, residents in the Tokyo metropolitan area would be forced to evacuate. Former Minister of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism Sumio Mabuchi, who was appointed to the post of then Prime Minister Naoto Kan’s advisor on the nuclear disaster immediately after its outbreak, proposed the injection of concrete from below the No. 4 reactor to the bottom of the storage pool, Chernobyl-style. *** “Because sea water was being pumped into the reactor, the soundness of the structure (concrete corrosion and deterioration) was questionable. There also were doubts about the calculations made on earthquake resistance as well,” said one government source familiar with what took place at the time. “[F]uel rod removal will take three years. Will the structure remain standing for that long?Asahi noted last month that - if Unit 4 pool gets a crack from an earthquake and leaks, it would be the end for Tokyo.Kevin Kamps said last month: Unit 4 storage pool… The entire building is listing including the pool. What they have is steel jacks underneath the pool to try to keep the floor from falling out or the pool from flipping over. If that cooling water supply is lost, it will be just a few hours at most before that waste is on fire. 135 tons outside of any radioactive containment. They would be direct releases into the environment. 100% of cesium-137 could be released to the environment.Former U.N. adviser Akio Matsumura - whose praises have been sung by Mikhail Gorbachev, U.S. Ambassadors Stephen Bosworth and Glenn Olds, and former U.S. Deputy Secretary of State and Goldman Sachs co-chair John C. Whitehead - notes: The unit suffered enormous damage during the tsunami—a hydrogen explosion blew the roof off, leaving the highly radioactive fuel pool exposed to the open air. If another high level earthquake hits the area, the building will certainly collapse. Japanese and American meteorologists have predicted that such a strong earthquake is indeed likely to hit this year. The meltdown and unprecedented release of radiation that would ensue is the worst case scenario that then-Prime Minister Kan and other former officials have discussed in the past months. He warned during his speech at the World Economic Forum in Davos that such an accident would force the evacuation of the 35 million people in Tokyo, close half of Japan and compromise the nation’s sovereignty. Such a humanitarian and environmental catastrophe is unimaginable. Hiroshi Tasaka, a nuclear engineer and special adviser to Prime Minister Kan immediately following the crisis, said the crisis “just opened Pandora’s Box.” The current Japanese government has not yet mentioned the looming disaster, ostensibly to not incite panic in the public. Nevertheless, action must be taken quickly. This website over the last year has published a running commentary from scientists explaining why Reactor 4 must be stabilized immediately, who might be able to accomplish such a task, and why the situation has largely gone unnoticed. We believe an independent, international team of structural engineers and other advisers must be assembled and deployed immediately. Mounting public pressure would force the Japanese government to take action. We hope these resources are helpful in educating the public about the crisis that we face. As the eminent German physicist Dr. Hans-Peter Durr said ten months ago, if the spent fuel pool spills, we will be in a situation where science never imagined we could be.Matsumura was told that if the fuel pool at unit 4 collapses or the water spills out, so much radiation will spew out for 50 years that no one will be able to approach Fukushima:Even more dramatically, Matsumura writes: Japan’s former Ambassador to Switzerland, Mr. Mitsuhei Murata, was invited to speak at the Public Hearing of the Budgetary Committee of the House of Councilors on March 22, 2012, on the Fukushima nuclear power plants accident. Before the Committee, Ambassador Murata strongly stated that if the crippled building of reactor unit 4—with 1,535 fuel rods in the spent fuel pool 100 feet (30 meters) above the ground—collapses, not only will it cause a shutdown of all six reactors but will also affect the common spent fuel pool containing 6,375 fuel rods, located some 50 meters from reactor 4. In both cases the radioactive rods are not protected by a containment vessel; dangerously, they are open to the air. This would certainly cause a global catastrophe like we have never before experienced. He stressed that the responsibility of Japan to the rest of the world is immeasurable. Such a catastrophe would affect us all for centuries. Ambassador Murata informed us that the total numbers of the spent fuel rods at the Fukushima Daiichi site excluding the rods in the pressure vessel is 11,421 (396+615+566+1,535+994+940+6375). I asked top spent-fuel pools expert Mr. Robert Alvarez, former Senior Policy Adviser to the Secretary and Deputy Assistant Secretary for National Security and the Environment at the U.S. Department of Energy, for an explanation of the potential impact of the 11,421 rods. I received an astounding response from Mr. Alvarez [updated 4/5/12]: In recent times, more information about the spent fuel situation at the Fukushima-Dai-Ichi site has become known. It is my understanding that of the 1,532 spent fuel assemblies in reactor No. 304 assemblies are fresh and unirradiated. This then leaves 1,231 irradiated spent fuel rods in pool No. 4, which contain roughly 37 million curies (~1.4E+18 Becquerel) of long-lived radioactivity. The No. 4 pool is about 100 feet above ground, is structurally damaged and is exposed to the open elements. If an earthquake or other event were to cause this pool to drain this could result in a catastrophic radiological fire involving nearly 10 times the amount of Cs-137 released by the Chernobyl accident. The infrastructure to safely remove this material was destroyed as it was at the other three reactors. Spent reactor fuel cannot be simply lifted into the air by a crane as if it were routine cargo. In order to prevent severe radiation exposures, fires and possible explosions, it must be transferred at all times in water and heavily shielded structures into dry casks.. As this has never been done before, the removal of the spent fuel from the pools at the damaged Fukushima-Dai-Ichi reactors will require a major and time-consuming re-construction effort and will be charting in unknown waters. Despite the enormous destruction cased at the Da–Ichi site, dry casks holding a smaller amount of spent fuel appear to be unscathed. Based on U.S. Energy Department data, assuming a total of 11,138 spent fuel assemblies are being stored at the Dai-Ichi site, nearly all, which is in pools. They contain roughly 336 million curies (~1.2 E+19 Bq) of long-lived radioactivity. About 134 million curies is Cesium-137 — roughly 85 times the amount of Cs-137 released at the Chernobyl accident as estimated by the U.S. National Council on Radiation Protection (NCRP). The total spent reactor fuel inventory at the Fukushima-Daichi site contains nearly half of the total amount of Cs-137 estimated by the NCRP to have been released by all atmospheric nuclear weapons testing, Chernobyl, and world-wide reprocessing plants (~270 million curies or ~9.9 E+18 Becquerel). It is important for the public to understand that reactors that have been operating for decades, such as those at the Fukushima-Dai-Ichi site have generated some of the largest concentrations of radioactivity on the planet. Many of our readers might find it difficult to appreciate the actual meaning of the figure, yet we can grasp what 85 times more Cesium-137 than the Chernobyl would mean. It would destroy the world environment and our civilization. This is not rocket science, nor does it connect to the pugilistic debate over nuclear power plants. This is an issue of human survival. There was a Nuclear Security Summit Conference in Seoul on March 26 and 27, and Ambassador Murata and I made a concerted effort to find someone to inform the participants from 54 nations of the potential global catastrophe of reactor unit 4. We asked several participants to share the idea of an Independent Assessment team comprised of a broad group of international experts to deal with this urgent issue. I would like to introduce Ambassador Murata’s letter to the UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon to convey this urgent message and also his letter to Japan’s Prime Minister Yoshihiko Noda for Japanese readers. He emphasized in the statement that we should bring human wisdom to tackle this unprecedented challenge.Ambassador Murata’s letter says: It is no exaggeration to say that the fate of Japan and the whole world depends on NO.4 reactor. This is confirmed by most reliable experts like Dr. Arnie Gundersen or Dr. Fumiaki Koide. Anti-nuclear physician Dr. Helen Caldicott says that if fuel pool 4 collapses, she will evacuate her family from Boston and move them to the Southern Hemisphere. This is an especially dramatic statement given that the West Coast is much more directly in the path of Fukushima radiation than the East Coast.Will humanity rise to the occasion, and figure out how to stabilize fuel pool number 4 before catastrophe strikes?Or will modern civilization win a Darwin award for failing to pay attention to the real threats?
Radioactive fluid leaks at French nuclear reactorRENNES, France — Radioactive cooling fluid leaked at a French nuclear reactor Thursday following two small fires, but the spillage was safely collected in special tanks, officials said.A reactor at the power plant in Penly on the English Channel near the port of Dieppe shut down automatically after two small fires broke out Thursday, the plant's operator EDF said.Firefighters easily extinguished the blazes but a cooling pump was damaged, in turn causing a joint to leak radioactive water into collection tanks located inside the reactor building, EDF said.The reactor continued to be cooled properly and teams were working to lower the water pressure, the company said.EDF said the installation was secure, no one was injured, and there were "no consequences for the environment".It was not clear what caused the fires but the French Nuclear Safety Authority (ASN) said firefighters had found small pools of burning oil but quickly extinguished the flames."These were pools of a few dozen square centimetres," said agency spokeswoman Evangelia Petit, adding the authority would make an inspection of the site Friday.The ASN said in a statement that it had provisionally put the event at level 1 on the international INES scale, which classifies nuclear accidents at between 1 ("irregularity") and 7 ("major incident").The agency said it was lifting the crisis situation that had been put in place on Thursday evening.France generates 75 percent of its electricity from nuclear power and the future of the industry has become an issue in campaigns for the presidential election to be held in April and May.France, the world's most nuclear-dependent country, operates 58 reactors and has been a leading international proponent of atomic energy.But the country's reliance on nuclear power has been called into question since the Fukushima disaster in Japan, which prompted Germany to announce plans to shut all of its reactors by the end of 2022.
Fukushima Dai-Ichi No. 4: An earthquake before spent fuel rods are moved to safe storage would be “the end”By lambert strether, who blogs at Corrente.This clip from TV Asahi is a lucid explanation of the biggest ongoing news story in the world today: The catastrophic consequences if an earthquake strikes the Fukushima Dai-Ichi No. 4 power plant before its spent fuel rods are moved to safe storage place, a process that will not even begin until December 2013, and could take years. It aired March 8, 2012 on “Morning Bird,” a mainstream Japanese news and information TV program.NOTE Click the CC button at bottom right to show English subtitles!I made a transcript from the video subtitles (created by tokyobrowntabby), since this interview received no (zero, zip, zilch, nada) coverage in our famously free press, and I’d also like people to be able to quote from it, and search engines to find it. If you just read the transcript, and play the whole video through, at least play the presenters’ reaction shot at [5:04 - 5:07]; “the end” is impactful. The reporter is Mr. Toru TAMAKAWA. The expert is Dr. Hiroaki KOIDE, Research Associate at the Research Reactor Institute of Kyoto University. I’ve marked material from other presenters PRESENTER. TAMAKAWA [0:00] You may think it’s “already one year [since the accident] but it’s actually “still only one year.” [0:05] True cause of the Fukushima Daiichi accident still hasn’t been identified. [0:10] Results from the investigation by Nuclear Accident Independent Investigation Commission (NAIIC) designated by Japan’s Diet have not been published yet. [0:18] Still, they are talking about resuming the operation of nuclear plants. [0:21] I wonder what lessons they have learned from the Fukushima accident. [0:26] I want to ask you if TEPCO’s Fukushima Daichii is safe now. [0:35] They talk as if the accident was over. Is it really over? Please look at this. [0:40] (caption) Two major political parties hope to resume the operation. But is the accident over? [0:42] Is it really over? For example, Unit 4. [0:49] In fact, Dr. Koide of Kyoto University is worried about it most. [0:53] The present conditions of Unit 4 are like this. [0:57] You see, almost no walls. [1:00] They were blown off, and honestly speaking, the Unit 4 is a wreck. A wreck. [1:04] There’s a stuff called “fuel pool” here. [1:10] This is a schematic illustration on the right. [1:12] The space up to around here is occupied by the nuclear reactor. Around here. [1:17] And there’s a fuel room in this area. Many fuel rods are stored in the fuel pool. [1:24] They are “spent” fuel, but a total of more than 1,500 rods are in there. 2.8 times more fuel than that inside the reactor. [1:31] These rods in the pool must be cooled constantly. [1:34] Now, what if an earthquake strikes right now and the water in the pool started to leak? I asked this question to Dr. Koide. Please watch this video. KOIDE [1:45] As you see, there’s the pool, here and many spent fuel rods are in the bottom of the pool. [1:54] If a large aftershock strikes and the wall here collapses, the water in the pool will leak out and the spent fuel will not be cooled any more. [2:07] Then they will start to melt, probably completely. [2:15] And a huge amount of radiation contained in the spent fuel will be released outside, with no walls to contain it. TAMAKAWA [2:27] We’ll never know an earthquake strikes. [2:30] But can’t we simply build another pool beside it and take the rods out and transfer them to the new pool before an earthquake strikes? KOIDE [2:37] Well, if you hoist them up in the air, huge amount of radiation will come out from the spent fuel [2:45] and people nearby will have no choice but to die from it. TAMAKAWA [2:49] That strong? KOIDE: Yes. TAMAKAWA [2:53] Spent fuel rods are in the pool but it doesn’t mean they’re “spent.” [2:58] They still produce heat and still have radioactivity that would kill peple nearby if exposed in the air. [3:05] They are safe now simply because they are in the water and the water blocks the radiation. [3:10] As the video shows, I asked him “Why can’t we simply transfer them to another pool?” Now, let’s look at how the transfer is normally done. [3:20] As shown here, nuclear fuel rods are initially in the reactor. When they are spent, they are transferred to the spent fuel pool here.[3:28] What they do first is lower this giant container into the water. [3:34] Then the fuel rods are transferred into this container in the water. All of them. [3:42] Then they close the lid with water inside, and hoist the container outside. [3:48] But now, because of the earthquake, the crane to hoist them is not working any more. [3:53] Then, how are they going to transfer the fuel rods? KOIDE [3:58] You see, there’s a giant crane above the operation floor. TAMAKAWA: Yes. KOIDE [4:02] This crane is for hoisting the giant container up and down. [4:09] But since this reactor building itself was blown off by the explosion, they can’t even use this crane. [4:16] There are many things they have to do. [4:18] First, remove the debris and other things that have fallen into the fuel pool. [4:25] Next, they have to set up a crane at the site to lower the giant container into the water. [4:35] A giant crane to operate from outside. They have to make preparations for this operation. [4:41] Lower the container down into the water, put the fuel rods which are probably damaged to some degree, into the container [4:48] and hoist it up to move outside. All this could take years. TAMAKAWA [4:57] What if a destructive earthquake strikes during those years? KOIDE [5:03] That will be the end. TAMAKAWA: The end? KOIDE: Yes. You see, that will be the end. [5:04 - 5:07] Reaction shot of news presenters] PRESENTERS [5:08] Unbelievable. Unbelievable. [5:12] This is a serious problem. TAMAKAWA [5:14] TEPCO knows this is the most pressing issue. Yesterday, as if to make it in time for our program, TEPCO announced the latest schedule. [5:22] It says they start retreiving the fuel rods of Unit 4 in January next year at the earliest. [5:27] So if a large earthquake should strike from now until that January… [5:35] No, it doesn’t have to be that large. Unit 4 has been shaken many times already. PRESENTER [5:39] If the pool got cracks after another earthquake and the water starts to leak out, Dr. Koide says that will be the end. TAMAKAWA [5:49] The end for a wide area including Tokyo. PRESENTER [5:54] Oh my, and they are talking about resuming nuclear power plant operation. TAMAKAWA [5:55] I think resuming the operation is out of the question at least until the results from the investigation by NAIIC come out [but see below]. [6:00] The same goes for the new nuclear regulatory agency. The nature of the agency should reflect their results [but see below]. PRESENTER [6:07] For an important issue like this, the opposition should check the ruling party. [6:15] But this time they can’t, because there are also people in the opposition who want to promote nuclear power, who want to resume the plants’ operation, who are pressed to do so. Both sides want to operate nuclear power plants. TAMAKAWA [6:26] But there are many people including Mr. Kono of LDP [opposition] who think that’s not the way it should be. PRESENTER [6:32] But they’re a minority, aren’t they? TAMAKAWA: No, they aren’t. [6:36] There are people who think the same even in DJP [ruling party]. But here are also many people who want to resume the operation. PRESENTER [6:41] I want to vote again. PRESENTER [6:42] They talk about resuming the operation after gaining understanding from local communities. [6:45] But for this issue, I think the whole country of Japan, or the whole area including the neighboring countries, is a “local community” that would be affected. [6:51] We should keep in mind that it’s not only the sites of the plants that should be considered as “local communities.” PRESENTER [6:57] We should recognize the accident is far from over and the crisis is still ongoing. TAMAKAWA [7:06] Yes. And excuse me, I have a correction to make. [7:13] Retrieving the fuel rods is planned to start not from January, but from… when? December next year? (Yes.) TAMAKAWA [7:14] December next year? No kidding! TAMAKAWA [7:18] Sorry, I was too optimistic. PRESENTER [7:21] The members of the Diet who want to resume, I want them to resign. PRESENTER [7:25] We need to reconsider this issue. PRESENTER [7:28] I want to know the exact names of the members of the Diet who want to resume, and ask them for their opinions. TAMAKAWA [7:34] I hope this issue will be discussed further at the Diet.Since March 8, when the show aired: The NAIIC has not issued a report. A new nuclear regulatory agency has not been created The Japanese government has declared two nuclear reactors safe to restart.A few random thoughts:1. I find the contrast between the trappings of a morning talk show — the flowers, the stuffed animals — and the subject matter almost unbearably poignant. I assume our government has plans to accept refugees in case of disaster. Not.2. It seems that the Japanese government is as remote from the people as “our” own, and that the Japanese elite is as stupid and/or evil as “our” own. Quelle surprise!3. The following moral claim sounds very familiar to me: [6:42] They talk about resuming the operation after gaining understanding from local communities. [6:45] But for this issue, I think the whole country of Japan, or the whole area including the neighboring countries, is a “local community” that would be affected. [6:51] We should keep in mind that it’s not only the sites of the plants that should be considered as “local communities.”This is exactly the moral claim made in landfill and mining fights up here in the great state of Maine. (In legal terms, we call it “standing.”) It’s also the same claim made in fights against mountaintop removal, fracking, and Obama’s Keystone XL project. And oddly, or not, this argument gets at little credence from Japan’s elite as it does from our own. “Who then is my neighbor?” (Luke 10:29).4. Look! Over there! Hillary Rosen!NOTE Hat tip Richard Smith for the video.NOTE * A Google search on Hiroaki Koide:Again, this isn’t fringe; this interview appeared on a major, “mainstream” Japanese television network, TV Asahi. The censorship in this country is positively Goebbelsian in its pervasiveness and power, isn’t it?
Lo que está sucediendo es que nos están sometiendo a un proceso de *saqueo* CALCADO, a los procesos neoliberales que practicaron con latinoamérica con la excusa de la "crisis de la deuda" desde los 70, 80 y 90
Ante semejante avalancha conversa con ellos indagando el por qué de tanta inmigración japonesa, !ojo! inmigración que no económica sino cultural...Sus respuestas:Fukushima. Ni se creen los datos ofrecidos por sus gobernantes; según ellos no dicen una verdad sobre el cataclismo ecológico y sus consecuencias a corto, medio y largo plazo, y por supuesto, al miedo del entorno aunque se atemperen las noticias oficiales al respecto.Vamos, que no se creen de la misa la mitad. Aunque lo relate en clave socarrona entiendo que es un tema muy serio del que tan apenas nadie se hace eco, y visto desde una perspectiva local o global, el tema acojona.Saludos.
Cita de: Маркс en Abril 14, 2012, 22:39:11 pmAnte semejante avalancha conversa con ellos indagando el por qué de tanta inmigración japonesa, !ojo! inmigración que no económica sino cultural...Sus respuestas:Fukushima. Ni se creen los datos ofrecidos por sus gobernantes; según ellos no dicen una verdad sobre el cataclismo ecológico y sus consecuencias a corto, medio y largo plazo, y por supuesto, al miedo del entorno aunque se atemperen las noticias oficiales al respecto.Vamos, que no se creen de la misa la mitad. Aunque lo relate en clave socarrona entiendo que es un tema muy serio del que tan apenas nadie se hace eco, y visto desde una perspectiva local o global, el tema acojona.Saludos.Lo que no me encaja es que se vayan del país con mas energía nuclear, al segundo país con mas energía nuclear.Que yo estoy convencido que, desgraciadamente, va a haber otro par de catástrofes nucleares hasta que por fin se acabe con esta locura y se decida a cerrar todas las centrales. Y mucho me temo que, al menos una de ellas, acabará tocando en Francia. Si es que es inevitable, por pura estadística. No se crean que no me acojona sobremanera.
Cita de: Starkiller en Abril 16, 2012, 12:07:22 pmCita de: Маркс en Abril 14, 2012, 22:39:11 pmAnte semejante avalancha conversa con ellos indagando el por qué de tanta inmigración japonesa, !ojo! inmigración que no económica sino cultural...Sus respuestas:Fukushima. Ni se creen los datos ofrecidos por sus gobernantes; según ellos no dicen una verdad sobre el cataclismo ecológico y sus consecuencias a corto, medio y largo plazo, y por supuesto, al miedo del entorno aunque se atemperen las noticias oficiales al respecto.Vamos, que no se creen de la misa la mitad. Aunque lo relate en clave socarrona entiendo que es un tema muy serio del que tan apenas nadie se hace eco, y visto desde una perspectiva local o global, el tema acojona.Saludos.Lo que no me encaja es que se vayan del país con mas energía nuclear, al segundo país con mas energía nuclear.Que yo estoy convencido que, desgraciadamente, va a haber otro par de catástrofes nucleares hasta que por fin se acabe con esta locura y se decida a cerrar todas las centrales. Y mucho me temo que, al menos una de ellas, acabará tocando en Francia. Si es que es inevitable, por pura estadística. No se crean que no me acojona sobremanera.No he estado en ninguna central nuclear francesa...si que conocí a sus tecnicos (uff!! las tecnicas francesas que sin pudor se quedaban en cueros vivos!!!) y les aseguro que antes nos ocurre un accidente aquí que allí.Crucemos los dedos.
a los que siguen el tema, ¿como va lo de la socializacion via maritima?, lo de toda la mierda que tiran al mar, ¿que dice greenpeace?(o WWF, a ver si es que tienen de patron al emperador???)